Season 2. Ep 20 - When Church Stops Showing Up

Some churches talk nonstop about being “salt and light,” but when a widow is drowning in real life needs, nobody knocks on the door. We get honest about the gap between church branding and biblical service, and why flashy outreach can become a substitute for the slow, unglamorous work of caring for people over months and years. If you have ever wondered why church can feel like a club, or why help seems reserved for insiders, you will recognize the patterns we describe.

We unpack the language that keeps systems running even when hearts are hurting: Christianese that sounds holy but costs nothing, and churchianity that protects the institution more than the vulnerable. We also share a practical way to evaluate priorities without guessing motives: look at the budget, especially benevolence spending, and ask what it says about a church’s mission. From there we compare modern church structure to the early church in Acts 2 and Acts 4, where community, shared resources, and everyday discipleship were the norm.

Then we head into the rabbit hole: should pastors be paid, what does “pastor” even mean, and how does leadership drift when it becomes an office and an inner circle. Along the way we talk about righteous accountability versus gossip, what it feels like to be labeled “led by the enemy” for raising concerns, and how stepping away from an unhealthy system can actually draw you closer to Christ through prayer, Scripture, and real community.

If you care about biblical community, church reform, Christian leadership, and what faith looks like on the ground, listen through to the end and join the conversation. Subscribe, share this with a friend who has wrestled with church hurt, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

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Transcript

Welcome, Wives, And Dogs

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Welcome to the Make a Man Podcast where we explore what it means to be a man in today's society. Alright, guys, welcome to another episode of the Make a Man Podcast. I'm your host, Brett, and RJ's here too. Hello. And we have our wives on with us again. We're so excited. And we have our my our my dog.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Susie should be the thumbnail for this episode. She should be.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

I don't really do thumbnails.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

Well, we can fix that. You do now.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Susie or Little Bulldog, and then we got Mavby whining in the background. Is that who that was? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

I thought I was my child. Sound the same. He's not that.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Anyway, so uh we talked about before our break, talked about getting into a couple different more controversial topics. Love it. So we've you know, RJ and I have talked a lot about the different things about church and stuff on this podcast and what the roles of a church should be. If you know, and you know, and the reality of it in the last year and a half has been, oh, oh, my dog. My dog is getting on the mic for you, squishy poo, or little bulldog. Anyway, forever she will be on the podcast. Yes. She's cuddling Megan. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 1:41

It's Poo Poo's podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

It's the Pooh Poo podcast. For those of you guys don't know, her name is Susie. She's a little bulldog, and yes, we call her Poo-poo. Yeah. Anyway. This

When Outreach Becomes A Show

SPEAKER_00 1:53

is gonna be a weird, weird style. That's okay. So yeah, we were talking about uh is uh you know RJ and Becca are you know here for the visit, and you know, we're or we've been seeing and observing things going on around us, and one of the biggest things we've we have some friends that are widows, and you know, we we kind of talked about unfortunately the with the way the church has been set up when we all left, we're finding out more and more that the church is not set up appropriately in the aspect of a lot of churches claim they do a lot of eva uh evangelism or outreach and all this stuff, but they're doing it more for the production of their own and getting more butts in the seats as opposed to taking care of the congregation in the community. And I think that that is uh something that we keep seeing over and over again. I've seen this with a couple different churches that are like, oh, we're doing this program or this program for the community, and it's like it's like a one-day thing, and or it's an online thing, and that's about it. Yeah, you know, and that's not what we're called to do. We're called to help our neighbor, we're called to help our community, we're called to do that, and yeah, it's it's just been frustrating. See, so an example of this is one of our friends, you know, she unfortunately became a widow a year, two two years ago. About a year and a half. About a year and a half ago, yeah. And you know, they have a ranch just like we do, and the you know, some of it's in disarray because unfortunately it's her and her daughter and her other daughter and son-in-law that live on the property, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:33

Yeah, they live on the property, and her daughter's like about to burst. She's about to have a baby.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

And you know, and you know, she was talking to us because we went and all visit her yesterday, and and it was it was it was a little heartbreaking to see that you know, we can only do so much just because you know you guys are you guys live out of state. Yeah, and the other, you know, both Megan and I, we work full-time. And yeah, we have our own ranch to deal with. You know, we're dealing with a calf and cow right now, they're not doing great. Yeah. You know, and so it's like it's heartbreaking to see the people who you know talk about being the the center point of the community or want to be the the the I talk about being salt and light, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:18

That's like the biggest thing in in Christianese.

Christianese, Churchianity, And Blinders

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Christianese, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Let's define Christianese, Christianese and churchianity.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

So those are those are two terms we need to define. So Christianese are just using words, and they sound good, they sound biblical, but they're basically without action, they're empty. So you can say all you want and make it sound super holy. You know, if I recall, Jesus said, Woe to the Pharisees who walk around and do all these things. You know, he kind of mentioned that around the Pharisees.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Anywho, well, he flipped tables even.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Yeah. So, and then you have, you know, something that I've heard and I don't know where I heard it or I made it up or whatever, but church entity, where it's just that's your culture and that's your thing, and you do that, and you're church-centered instead of Christ. Church-centered instead of Christ-centered. And I that's I think that's where a lot of failure has happened, is that you are so focused on what your church is doing that you're missing all the things around you and the people around you that are hurting and need help.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

No, church blinders.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

It's like church blinders, yeah. Now, there are some that do a really good job. I'm not saying that everyone, but I think the vast majority that I've encountered, that I've researched, that I've you know, been to, that's that's the case.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Well, it's kind of like do you go, I mean, go drive downtown on almost any any town or street corner or city. You don't really see churches out there talking about God. You don't see anybody helping the poor, you know. Yeah, they may throw money at the homeless shelters or something like that, but you don't actually see anybody physically helping. And I do believe, and I will say this, you know, because you you know, you guys and us, we you know, we attended the same church for many years, and you know, I do believe at one point I I believe that we had that small town absolutely church family.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

We we were known in the community, and anybody could come to us. I mean, we had a relationship with the school that was unheard of, the fire station, you know, anybody in the community like it wasn't necessarily that we had a good standing because I don't I could care less if we had good standing in the community, but we were known for helping helping people and being willing to help.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Well, I mean, I remember there was one family during a VBS that their house burned down, yeah, and they went home after VBS and discovered it. Yep, and then we found all about it the next day, and people were pulling money out of their wallets, including ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

I mean, we're not trying to no, but they were donating donated an RV so that they could stay there, right? I mean, they did every I mean we talk about watching acts two in action, that was it, and that was the coolest thing, but that doesn't exist anymore anymore. Not here and not in many places, you

Budgets, Benevolence, And Real Priorities

SPEAKER_02 7:11

know. The one okay, I'll say here's a good gauge for look at your own church, do it, do an evaluation, ask what your benevolence budget is and tell me what percentage of the overall budget it is, and then that will tell you okay, so where's the focus? What what is my church's focus? It's in your budget, and your bud church's budget is the focus of the church. That'll tell you everything.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Well, and I I want to preface this not all churches are bad. No, no, the church structure needs to be reformed.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Yes, we need a Becca.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

I see that face idea.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Okay, it we we definitely get the term and the word church wrong. We're talking about defining terms, right? People talk about the early church, it was not anything like what we have today, it's nothing like that. And the Acts 2, people always talk about Acts 2 and Acts 4, where people gathered together. Was there preaching? Yes, because they did they have Old Testament scriptures? No, did they know about Christ? No, they did not. The the people who were there firsthand, the apostles were the ones that were saying they're preaching the good news, right?

SPEAKER_04 8:26

The good news like a news report because they weren't there, they weren't so people weren't there. The gospel was people didn't know, people couldn't read, so they had to go out and tell people the gospel. Now we have it in the Bible, like it's on your phone. Okay, if you have a smartphone, you can have a Bible, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:47

And so, but church structure it wasn't a structure, it wasn't a structure, right? Like I'm not talking about a building, I'm not I'm not just talking about a building, I'm talking about this person is in charge, and these people are under them, and blah blah blah. That didn't exist. And people sold things and gave to those who needed help, and people were taken care of. And it's amazing how you didn't need a structure, and it just happened naturally by the moving of the Holy Spirit, and you know, it's that's something that we've gotten away from. So I don't know if I went on a on a tangent there. I am sorry.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Well, I think it's more of we want to just clarify though that you know I feel that when we were all attending at the same time, that that's the structure that we had was different than our quote unquote main campus. And we in a lot of ways were very different from the general structure because we I feel like we were family-oriented, we were, and not to say that some churches are not that way, there are churches that are that way there, but I feel like they're few and far between. And they really I mean, I think we talked about this a few episodes ago, but we talked about like when I was I've done church shopping, right? And when I called one pastor and he was bragging that once he started talking about tithing, like his budget went up, and it's like you know, that tells that tells you a lot, right? And you know, but you know, Megan and I, we've been in this journey as long as I know you know, also you guys, you know, I do feel that a big chunk of us at the time, I think it's changed since then, but at the time, you know, a bunch of us would give the shirt off of our back for everybody. And I think that the the the essence. Yeah, yeah. Well, didn't people like donate clothes and everything for that family?

SPEAKER_04 10:50

And yeah, she's just saying it's not that we would have, it's that we it's that we like we gave everything, we gave our the well-being of our own children to that church because we were spending more time serving the people of the community and the church than we were at home.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Well, you guys were there almost every other day.

SPEAKER_04 11:08

Yeah, there was a time when it was every day we had to not participate in things in order to have a day at home with our kids, and it was it was wrong the fact that this was happening and that people weren't allowed to focus on their own families, and then there were people in the community that were being turned away with real needs.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Yes, well, and we can get into that part, so you know, and that so the things that we've seen, unfortunately, and and granted, you know, for those listening, a lot of this is personal experience, and but talking with a lot of other people who have left different churches, talking with uh there, you know, a lot of research and a lot of diving deep into the structure, we've we've learned a lot more beyond even our own personal experience. So yeah, totes, you know, totes. So I I definitely encourage anybody research your own church, research your own uh communities, and see who's doing what, because that that's gonna speak volumes, yeah. So my thing is is when we were going, you know, I they a lot of churches claim to be you know make disciples, or that's their goal, is right, you know, you know, get the good news out, get the word out, and blah blah blah. Great commission, right? Yeah, and that's told us to do. And that's what yeah, agreed. That's what we need, that's what Christ called us to do is preaching the good news, preaching the word of what he said, preaching about the story of what Christ did for us. And you know, I can attest to a few instances where God randomly put me in situations that I talked about that. But the one things that I kept seeing is that if you're not part of the club, let's say let's call it that, then you're not going to be helped. As we talked about our friend who is you know a widow now. I mean, it speaks volumes when her husband, one of his dying wishes was not to have the current pastor be at his funeral, you know, or at least go talk to him at all.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

He didn't want him to talk. He's like, I don't want him to come back into my room that I have no need to talk to him again.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Right. And that's and and that that should speak volumes. So when you're talking to your pastors, talking to your spiritual leaders, you know, really dive deep into what their philosophies are, what they're actually doing, because at the end of the day, if they're not doing what God is calling all of us to do, going and helping people, like I'm sorry, if you're a pastor, you shouldn't be sitting in an office space all the time.

Should Pastors Be Paid

SPEAKER_00 13:52

And I even questioning you and I, RJ, have talked about this on the podcast. I want to hear your guys' thoughts. What are your what about even paying a pastor?

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Like, what is your opinion on that? I mean, you were RJ, you were a paid pastor at one point. I was. What is your feelings now on it with all of your experiences? Do you want me to go down hole? I want you to go down the rabbit hole. I go down that say a thing.

SPEAKER_04 14:15

Absolutely, love. I would say that when you were paid part-time, that made a lot more sense because you were still part of the community and you had to work just like everyone else. Yep. And but you did spend a lot of time at the church and did a lot of things at the church, and so they chose to pay you. Like it was, it wasn't even like it was not that much. But it was like a token, like, thank you for the helpful. And it was more like what you see in the Bible where Paul was not like paid full-time, but he was grateful whenever somebody took care of him, when they took care of him, or whatever. And that's kind of what it was then. But things took a major turn for the worse when you got paid full time.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Well, one funny thing happened. Whenever I got paid full-time, all of a sudden I was welcomed into the club. And I was said, Oh, oh, so you're a pastor RJ now. I'm like, Okay, so what what was I before? Right. What was I before? And honestly, like, I never felt a part of the club. I was that was the thing that was I was most reluctant about. And I know there are some pastors out there that I've talked to that that I that's why I never said yes before. That's why I said no, I don't want that, because I don't want there shouldn't be a club. There shouldn't be a club, and I don't want to, I don't want to have special treatment, I don't want an office, I don't want to do all these things, I don't want to sit in an office. My my my job is to love people, love God and love people. And so what I look at is I I go back to scripture. Okay, what does scripture say about this? And Jesus said when he was talking to his disciples, when the sons of thunder wanted to be at his right hand and his left, John and James, John and James, he spoke about this is what the Gentiles do. They rule, they have authority. This is my paraphrase, right? Because I don't have it right in front of me, but it's in a couple of the gospels. He said, the Gentiles Lord authority over people. He goes, That's not how it's gonna be in my kingdom. Jesus came to serve, washing of the disciples' feet, you know, going to the people and loving them. And he was the ultimate example of what it is to be a servant, right? And then you have this this this word pastor, which really came from uh a Latin word from the Latin Vulgate, which most people will say that's a poor translation of the Bible, but we we steal that term and say pastor from the and they say, well, it's from the Greek word for shepherd, but it really means shepherd. And if you look at what's what does a shepherd do? A shepherd sacrifices himself for the sheep, he lives with the sheep, he is a part of everything that is to do with the sheep. And our our defined our you know, term for pastors today, they are not that. They're they're they're office people who do, you know, the oh yeah, all right. So many of the pastors in the previous church we were in, they spend eight hours a day doing counseling in their office, and the only time they leave is to go to lunch. Okay because they'll they'll go to lunch at different places all the time. I'm sure they have meetings here and there, okay, but their time outside of the church is is so small. So I do not I do not like the term pastor, I do not like to define that because I think that we have misunderstood scripture with that. Everybody is called to be a servant, everybody is called to love God and love people. Jesus was never saying that a specific person, this is for you, he said this is for everybody, all the time, everywhere, man, woman. Okay, that's why this age-old debate of should women be pastors? Well, if there's no pastors, we don't have to debate that because I do not see that anywhere in what Jesus said that that is that that is a thing. And in fact, Jesus, even when he spoke to the woman at the well, we talked about this in the last podcast, he didn't tell her to be quiet, he didn't tell her to not go tell people, she ran off and told everybody. And you see many times where Jesus told men, don't say anything.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Wasn't that like Zacchaeus or Zachariah?

SPEAKER_02 18:34

Yeah, there was a couple of them, you know, he healed somebody, took a you know, uh the mud on the eyes. Yes, I think that was around that time. Oh, I must be reacting to something. I feel myself getting flushed. Um, that's not good.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

So But yeah, he told uh he told him yeah, because I want to say wasn't the blind guy or there was a blind guy, then there was uh one he cast out the demons, he cast them into the pigs, and then yeah, he then he goes, he's like, Don't tell anybody when that's the first thing he did.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

The the leper, he told the leper, just go and show yourself to to the priests that you're clean and don't say anything. The woman at the well, he didn't say that, he didn't give any of those instructions. In fact, he never did to a woman, he never said, Don't go say anything. That was never the case, and so my my point is okay, I know I got off track with it tangent, is that we don't actually we have a man's definition of what a pastor is, and we are not looking at God's definition for what his followers are supposed to do, and we are all called to the same thing. Thank you, my love. And so, yeah, so should pastors get paid? No, that's up to the people that are it is, it really is because if they want to, and he's doing the job that he is supposed to do, that Christ said to do, and they want to pay him, it's just like a king, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:56

So in ancient Israel, they were like, We want a king, great, so more offering versus tithing.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

Yeah, it's it it's there is no like tithing. I could get on that tangent too.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Well, we've already done that.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

We've already done that, but and if you've missed it, please go back. There's a lot of great information on there and look at scripture yourself. And sorry, I've got to take this pill. Hold on.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

No, you're good. Well, that's what it goes back to for me is the point of that we wanted to when you and I've been talking, RJ, with our wives about this, you know, talking about what the role of not just the pastor, but the role of what a church should be doing versus what is happening right now. Most churches, not all, but most, you know, you have a bunch of seat fillers that go in, yeah, they pay their tithe or whatever, and then they're good for the week. Yeah. The problem what I'm seeing is that there should be a uh the Christ built the church around to be or built the idea of what quote unquote church is, is more community. Yeah. Go and help each other do life together. And when you're when we're seeing nobody helping our friend is the example, yeah, you know, she's got a ton of projects that need to be done around her her farm, and nobody's banging on her door to help her out.

SPEAKER_04 21:16

You know, am I allowed to say who we're not her, but am I allowed to I don't think she would care one way or another. Not her, the the church we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Have we ever said the church? I don't know if we've actually ever said the church.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Am I not allowed to? I mean, at this point, I've had people knocking down my door for us mentioning the church online.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Oh for realsees?

SPEAKER_04 21:38

So I don't I don't even need to to mention it, but yeah, that church, and you know who you are, if you've heard this, yeah, this widow served you faithfully for seven years, and so did her husband.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Mm-hmm until he was even sick. She quit coming because she was having a series of heart attacks.

SPEAKER_04 21:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

And like literally heart attacks, and most of these pastors probably have no idea.

SPEAKER_04 22:01

No. And and then like people brought her food right after he died, but then you guys ignored her, and I'm really mad at you. And despite like doesn't matter what you did to us, which was horrible. I could care less. Continue to do to us, but don't do it to her because she doesn't deserve that. And she served you, and you're not even serving her, and she's a widow. Like, what in the world?

SPEAKER_00 22:25

So recently, too, we found out I mean, I'll say her name, Deb. She has cancer. Yeah. Her and her husband are elderly. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:35

What are you guys doing for her? Sorry. I'm gonna get real mad.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

No, it's but that's the thing, is I I haven't heard anything, and I don't, I mean, I can't say for a fact they're not doing anything, but it would considering what I've heard from the grapevine of many others that have gone to the church or are currently going, nothing's being done beyond of what is within their four walls. Yeah, and I feel like when we were all together, it was more of a family-oriented church. I had a meeting with Rich, who is a former, and that's what I think. Mention a few names, people know who's who. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:15

But this is Becca. You can email me.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

Rich, when I had a meeting with him after everything went down when we all left, you know, his intent for that church was to be a family. Yeah. And I feel like that did carry on to the next pastor, Josh.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

But it did not with well, and even Josh didn't as much as he could, but he was still under that system.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

He was, and and I didn't see it as much until really after he left, he was really locked into that system. Yeah, and that sucks, you know. And when we reached out, Megan and I even reached out to him, and we were like, Because he's still locked into that system, there's no possibility really for a relationship anymore. Yeah, right. Well, but when we reached out to him though, he I put him on speaker with Megan and I, and he's like, You guys just need to go back to church.

SPEAKER_03 24:10

And I'm like, that's not you're not even listening to like the concerns that right, and that's the whole he's locked into the system thing.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

And the and the disappointment part is like, this is a man who baptized us, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

You know, who did our but if you did our against it, if you speak against it, okay, even a minor bit, like a small issue like we sent an email.

SPEAKER_04 24:31

She sent an email caused a church split.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

And no, who whoever came to the case.

SPEAKER_04 24:35

People are still defaming me for it.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

So it was not about my wife wanting to be the worship leader.

SPEAKER_04 24:41

Ew, I didn't want that.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

No, no, thanks. And to this day, like it's ah, sorry, go ahead, Megan. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

It just it just reminds me that I've noticed some posts on social media from people that still go to that church of like they blocked me.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Yeah, well, I was immediately blocked. The day after I gave my resignation, I was blocked from the church's page immediately.

SPEAKER_04 25:08

Not blocked from that because I created it.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

Well, well, and it's it's they're posting these articles about if you are upset about the color of the curtains at the church, you've missed the point. It's like I I wished that that that was I wish it was that simple.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Right. Right. It wasn't.

SPEAKER_03 25:23

Unfortunately, that's not what it is, but I think that that's how the church is framing it.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Yeah. We we saw false teachers and tried to call out something that we didn't think was their character, but it turned out to be their character.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

That is your character. I'm gonna ask this to the congregation.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

To the podcast, if you want if you want to say equioans congregation. So do okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Which they interpret as church. So yes. To our four people sitting here for the podcast, okay. Do we want to blow this up real quick and just get the band-aid off?

SPEAKER_04 26:03

I don't think I think they know.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Okay. Well, no, I mean, if I I mean, let's because we've danced around the story this entire time.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

We have to tell the story.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

We called it out on Facebook. Well, we did.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

The whole story is a is it like it's a whole other episode. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

It's huge, but we can absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 26:25

I'm I'm after it's the truth, so I don't mind telling the truth.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

No, there's been enough lies that have been spread around that we are a certain way or or or what have you, and it's just not the case. And I have many people that called me immediately after and said, and then and they pinpointed exactly what it was before I even said anything. They said, Is it this person? And I said, Yeah, it was it was, and this is how it started.

SPEAKER_04 26:50

It's known that this happens at that point.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Yes, it was one person I thought. But well turned out to be the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

And the sad part is let's just bring it back to the original thing on for this episode because you know I want to make sure we're okay with our timing.

SPEAKER_04 27:04

I I had something to say about it when I was away, but I had to Okay, what I wanted to say, because you were talking about like pastors and being in the system and things like that. Right. Shouldn't be paid. Something that I said recently was that when someone feels that they're called to be a pastor, I have noticed that usually that means that they are just a good man, a good man who wants to go further into the word and further into these things. I know, like, I don't know, a year ago, Brett, you were like, I feel like I need to lead. I feel and it's like, yes, you are a Christian man, that is what you should be doing. And so they'll the church will grab these people up and say, Oh, you're called to be a pastor, and they want to use those those giftings, but really that's the call of every Christian. So if you're talking about biblical manhood, that's what it is. You look at a good pastor, and that's what every Christian man should aspire to. He should not just fill a seat, he should be doing these things for his community preaching the word. This is not command for just some people.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Well, and that's the thing that you know, when you're talking about like even with me, I didn't I'm like, I'm not, I don't feel ever feel called to be necessarily a pastor. But you know, when we were talking about Megan and I have been talking about doing a Bible study for a long time now, because you know we've been diving deep so you know on what church or community means, and yeah, you know, we've lost a lot of friends, and I mean right now we have even friends that think we're possessed by the devil, and you know and that you've walked away from the Lord.

SPEAKER_04 28:43

I thought we were the devil that was possessed by the Lord.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Oh, yeah, we were the devil that you guys pulled you and other people away influencing us as I forgot that I was worshiping Satan.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

Oh side seriously though, they say those things. They do. They do.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Oh, side note, did you know that your the high school that your brother works for is allowing Satanism now?

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Oh for realsies.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Yeah, that's fun.

SPEAKER_05 29:08

Yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Fun conversation for tomorrow. I'm sure we're gonna have plenty of fun conversations tomorrow, but side note.

Called Out As “Led By The Enemy”

SPEAKER_00 29:15

No, and I was kind of wanting to kind of go real quick into that little bit of a story that Megan dealt with recently. We had a longtime friend. Are you okay with doing that, honey? I'm just mad.

SPEAKER_04 29:27

I I will sit over here with my mouth.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

You can comment, Becca, it's okay. And and I hope the people who actually listen to this podcast, you know, we're not trying to throw everybody under the bus. That's not the whole goal of it.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

I love you, I pray for you every day.

SPEAKER_02 29:41

And and you know, many people are gonna say, Well, you're just gossiping. I'm sorry. Gossiping there's a difference, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yeah, go go into it. So then we'll get into Megan's.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Like gossip is, and you are saying something and spreading something without knowing anything about it, or and you're not willing to say that to that person's face, right? But you are spreading something that is potentially untrue or that you heard from somebody else. What we are doing is we are calling out sin and wrongdoing, okay, things that have hurt people, and that is something that we are called to do as believers to our fellow believers, and that is exactly what we are doing. And if they feel like that is gossip, fine. I'm sorry if you're convicted, but get over it and you know start reading. Reading scripture. Exactly.

unknown 30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Well, in the there's a thing about that, it's it's righteous judgment versus or righteous calling out, just like when Christ flipped tables and called out the Pharisees. This is basically what we're doing is calling out the Pharisees.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Get the plank out of your eye. I'm sorry. They misuse that too, much like they misuse everything else in scriptures. That's true. Move them out now. I can see clearly.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

If you want to get into do we preface it or do you want to get into it? You preface it because I don't know where we're. So the preface uh preface is a bit real quick because we're almost out of time. But and so this may be another episode to record before you guys leave us on Monday. No. But anyway, the preface is uh uh a friend of ours that we had, she we've been close with her family for many years. She uh sent a long winded text message to Megan. Basically, do you want to go and go into what it said?

SPEAKER_03 31:28

And just very surface level, just basically that Bratt put Brett posted a Okay, yeah. I posted a very long-winded post on social media basically saying why we left. But from a biblical standpoint the church, backing it up with scripture. And it wasn't something that was posted lightly, it was something that was thought through, it was something that was shared with others, it was something that he received counsel on, it wasn't something that was just like willy-nilly. I'm just gonna throw this out there. And I received a text message from who was a dear friend of ours. I mean, I mean, we were very, very close. Basically just saying that they can't be in fellowship with us because we are being led by the enemy.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

And until you heal the enemy, until we heal.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

Until you heal.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

Until you heal, yeah. They cannot be in the world. Tell me where that is in scripture. I would love for somebody to come on here to email Brett or anybody and say this is where this is in scripture.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

Because Well, and the sad part is that I mean, we were like considering using her daughter to be a horse trainer for us in this whole nine.

SPEAKER_03 32:33

And that's how this came up because I was trying to get a hold of her daughter. Her daughter sometimes has like cell phone service issues. So sometimes I go to to our friend and try to get a hold of her through her, and then that's when I got the long-winded message like, sorry, I haven't gotten back to you, but we can't be in fellowship with you until you heal because you're being led by the enemy.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

You're not a part of our club, right? And therefore you're led away by Satan.

SPEAKER_04 32:56

And if someone truly needs healing and you does turn them away, you don't turn them away, you run after that.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

But even if it were like, yeah, exactly. It's just completely the wrong approach if that's truly what you believe.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Yeah. I mean, if you're if you uh truly think someone is being led astray, then you're the you come alongside them. Right. And you know, we saw that multiple times within this church of there was one guy that was uh did it was committing abuse with his wife, but rather than coming alongside him, because you could tell he was very remorseful and he was sorry for what he did, and he was you know seeking guidance and seeking help.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

We were even sure it was abuse necessarily, like we didn't even know what happened, nobody took the time to find it.

SPEAKER_04 33:45

And cast him out instead of coming alongside him, and not just him.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

There were several people in the church that because they were undesirables, yes, you know. I mean, the I mean, I kind of call her the crazy dog lady, but you know, she one lady, you know, she was nice to people, but you know, a little eccentric, but you know, kind of they're honestly like harmless, yeah harmless, right? But absolutely love the Lord with all her heart, right? But instead of coming alongside her and helping her, going, Hey, how can we help you? I mean, you fixed even like her cars or something.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

I fixed her cars often, often. And that's another thing I would love to get into in another episode about widows and how this how this established church takes care of them, or quote that's that's in severe ear quotes, okay? Right. But yes, I fixed her car many times, and you know, she usually just paid me what she could, and I discounted the heck out of it.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

Right.

SPEAKER_03 34:43

But that's the thing is you know, instead of alongside these people, they out posted them and they warned the other church members about these people.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

I was told directly by our lead pastor that I am not we're we're anybody makes contact with her that they are supposed to block her.

SPEAKER_04 35:01

And I told people this, I remember actually using those words.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

And he one person asked me, really, that he said like that's no, I was like, Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

He said that directly to me when I would go to your house when this happened, actually.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Oh, really? Yeah, I was at your house, and this person called me and's like, What do I do here? I'm not I don't know this lady, but I feel like she needs some help. And I said, Oh, I was told to tell you to block her. Like she's well, I went to I'm pretty sure I still have the text message too.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

She is not a threat, like she's not a threat. Oh goodness, to anybody.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

What she her threat was was to the image of the church. But that's exactly what I was told was that she's gonna give the church a bad rap in the community because we're associated with her. And that's why they did it.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Like I it just I just go back to like the 90s, WWJD man. Yeah, yeah, we would not do that for real.

SPEAKER_04 35:56

That's where he was, he would be at her house, not at the church. Exactly. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Well, and I mean, I will admit, I mean from there was a men's like breakfast thing that I would go to, and that was discussed. That was seriously discussed in the men's group. Was oh, be careful talking to this person. I gotta go have a conversation directly from the pastor. I gotta go do this.

SPEAKER_03 36:17

And these were not threatening people, like these people were not violent, they were not like going to harm the congregation in any way physically. But like RJ said, it's it was a it was a threat to the image of the church.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Yeah. Oh, they she danced a little bit whenever we did worship.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

And I loved to watch her worship.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Because she was doing sign language, yeah. Okay, but sometimes she had a dog with her, okay. She smelled funny a little bit sometimes, but and then but she was ousted, she was completely ousted and ghosted by everybody.

SPEAKER_03 36:47

Exact opposite of what she needed.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

Exact opposite of what she needed. So, what does that say to the kingdom of God when we do that, right? Right. That's a that's bad for the image, I would say, to oust her. I mean, for for real.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

And but it speaks to the global aspect though of how many people look at the church and go, I was treated poorly.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

Yes, I had so many customers when I was doing mobile mechanic here in this county, lady down the road. And the reason one of the reasons we brought it up is because I passed by her house, her neighborhood. She was a paraplegic, and her husband left her, and she hadn't needed repairs on her house, and she was jaded by by churches, right? And some people call it church hurt, but I hate that term. Okay. Well, you can get into that in a episode. But she I said, you know what? We do different projects from time to time. Let me talk to our men's lead and see if we can make something work. You know what never happened?

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Nothing.

SPEAKER_02 37:36

Nothing. I brought it up several times, gave contact info, all this stuff, and they they couldn't get it together, didn't have the money or whatever. And just didn't have the money, just didn't have the yeah. That's a whole other conversation too about money. But this this lady who needed help, who loved the Lord, I prayed with her often. Nobody was willing to lift a finger or to use any church funds to help her out because one of the reasons she didn't go there. She didn't she didn't attend.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

And that's and that's where it's it. I believe that when it comes to church and everything, the funds that you take in need to be like I understand operating expenses like electricity and all that kind of stuff, but beyond that, you should be trying to help the community build as much as possible.

SPEAKER_02 38:27

I I think one of these days I'll I'll get a whole bunch of budgets together that I've found from other churches, even from our our home, and just run down, you know, like on our podcast. Like here, here's here's where we're looking at. Like you people need to look at it, and if they're not willing to give you a breakdown of what people are getting paid or what exactly funds are going to, you should be suspicious. You know, no, they don't legally have to to disclose that as a church because they're a different kind of nonprofit.

SPEAKER_03 38:55

But which is crazy in itself.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

Which is crazy in itself, but you know, that's the you know, we we started talking about this thing about should pastors get paid. And I think that overall the the main point is being missed in general, and the people aren't getting taken care of. The the people that are getting taken care of are the ones that are in the system. They're they're the only ones that are being looked after. And even sometimes of my experience as being a a pastor that was you know considered new, right? They don't even take care of them until you really prove your loyalty, and then things change. So that's that's at least the perspective that I have.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Well, that was that was a semi-explosive

Finding Biblical Community After Hurt

SPEAKER_00 39:43

episode. We started the the lighter, we started the fuse, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:46

And it's been so I'm unruly, and so oh that's true.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

She is she is unruly.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

Are you are you telling me you're gonna word vomit?

SPEAKER_02 39:55

But wait, I'm supposed to get my wife in line. Oh, that's right. I was supposed to do that. I didn't do that. That's my fault. Just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

That's I'm sorry, has anybody ever tried to get in line a five-foot half black woman with her very, very, very opinionated? Oh she's scary.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

We sometimes see the sassy black woman come out.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

No, but she but she loves me enough that she has wanted to do certain things, and I've said, I think that's a bad idea. And she's like, All right, I won't do them for the sake of you, because I love you, I won't do that.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Well, and I think that that's honestly and that's honoring your spouse. That's just absolutely I think that I will say this, and I'll I think this will be a good place to end on. I will say for those listening, if you have listened to our podcast for long enough and also kind of understand some of the story, the big things to take away, especially from this one, and we may if I can convince the crew to do one more episode either tonight or tomorrow night, is uh the this whole thing that happened to all of us of leaving the leaving the organization, leaving the church, actually actually has done what people think that we are influenced by the devil, influenced by you know everything, influence negativity. We've actually gotten closer to Christ, yes, ever before. So much closer. And you know, one of the things that like Megan and I do, you know, we we try to pray every morning before we leave the house. You know, on the weekends when we're home, we don't probably do it as much, but but during the week we do try to do that, and we try to, you know, I Megan's really good about listening to her Bible in the morning. I'm really bad about that. Uh I I listen to it when she reads, so we kind of read it together. Yeah. So well, I know that we're you and I started a thing at the beginning of the year, and yeah, I'm way behind. Me too.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

But I do listen to it, it's just not my version of it.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

But it's allowed us to do these deep dives into everything. And I know, you know, for Megan and I, we've had some uh really great conversations and really good deep conversations about what does this look like? What is life doing you know, doing life together look like? What is what is Christ's point for us? And for those who think that we're off our rocker, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

We've also had some very hurtful realizations of what people think the path we're on, unfortunately. Like, and it's been hurtful seeing that people think that we are just heathens. They said the same thing about Jesus and crucified. Exactly. But I mean taking a step back, like when something like that happens for me personally, it takes me a while to like recover from it because I have to logically think through the entire thing in order to like move on from it. But I think overall, go ahead, honey. I didn't mean to cut you off.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

I just wanted like it's go get your thoughts out.

SPEAKER_04 42:58

Yeah, no, you're good. Oh wait, don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Well and you know, and it's not a it's not a secret that you know you do have those thoughts of like I want to confront them, I want to do this, I want to do that. And it's like, but is that really gonna change anything? Is that really gonna do anything?

SPEAKER_03 43:17

And you want that justice because you know, we all want that feeling of justice, but at the end of the day Well, the other thing, sorry, now with you saying that when we left the church, there were so many people questioning what was going on, and we shared our side of the story with what was going on, and several people have gone back, and I don't know what they're being told over there, but they've gone back. And so with Brett saying you just want to like talk to these people and like let them know what's happening, it's like we can do that, but they're not gonna listen to it unless they want to hear it. Like truly know the truth. Yeah. Otherwise, they just they have their church blinders on.

SPEAKER_00 43:56

Yep. Yeah. But yeah. Uh, you know, if I can convince the crew to get into the full story and we'll reveal more names and everything, great. We'll see. But no, I think it it's important, you know, we to take a a couple takeaways from this episode is just understand, you know, that church isn't necessary for everybody, but that's okay. But there are good churches, there are bad churches. And but look at your overall structure, look at all the your overall what is the goal of your church. And if they're not looking at things from a how can we actually help the community and be part of the community and and build the community and be a light, look around for other stuff.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

Yeah, let's let's definitely focus on finding uh what biblical community looks is supposed to look like, right?

SPEAKER_00 44:50

And I think that that's a good point, RD. What biblical biblical community. I like that phrase. Biblical community. So but we're gonna wrap up this episode.

How To Reach Us

SPEAKER_00 45:00

So thank you again, ladies, for being on the podcast. If you guys want to uh reach out to us, you can go to makeamanpodcast at gmail.com. And if you have any questions, we're also on Facebook and on I think Instagram. Are we on Instagram? I'll have to look. I'm on Facebook. We have we do have a Facebook business page, but nobody ever messages us. But I didn't even know you had email.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

Maybe we need maybe you need Instagram and possibly TikTok.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

There's a lot of but yeah, shoot us an email, make a manpodcast.com or make my podcast at gmail.com. There we go. And we'll see you guys in the next episode.